Gerry Hayes Haze Guitars
Forum Replies Created
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Try this. It works on my prototyper so I hope I managed to get it drawn without any errors.
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I wasn’t aware of it but a bit of poking around has thrown up a number of references to some reissue mini humbuckers and firebird pickups being made with ceramic magnets and wound for really high output. There are a few places noting resistances of 16k and 25k — pretty much what you’re seeing. I couldn’t find a definite reference that lead back to a primary source at Gibson but they kill things off on their site regularly.
I saW enough mentions to happily believe that this is a thing (despite the insanity of it).
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EDITED – THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN REPLY TO COMMENT AT 12:08
Ok, Tony. I think it should be possible to do but will probably require a SuperSwitch in place of the PRS blade switch. I don’t actually have pin-outs for that PRS switch but I think what we’re talking about here will need the extra poles of the SuperSwitch.
Fair warning, it’s all in my head right now and I may be wrong so, before I go too deep in working this out, is this extra hardware and modding something you and your customer are ok with?
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EDITED – THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN REPLY TO MY COMMENT AT 11:44 ABOVE.
Hey Tony
Sorry. I’ve got a wrench to throw in the works. I’ve just seen that this PRS has 5-way switching (and some extra stuff) that allows both neck and bridge pickups be active together. This complicates things as it allows both of the new resistors be in circuit at the same time. I assumed it would be a Strat-type pickup selection that never has neck and bridge active together.
With both of these pickups active together, it drops the effective volume pot resistance to a very low 166K at that point.
We’d need to take one resistor out of circuit in position 3 to try make this work (while keeping it in circuit for the other positions). I’ve found the circuit for the PRS online but I’m not sure I have any easy solution right now.
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Hey Tony
Just want to add a bit of nuance here. Generally, to do this job we’d be adding a resistor between the chosen pickups hot connection and a ground point. The idea is to add another 500K resistor in parallel across the existing 500K pot so that the overall resistance is halved and becomes, effectively, 250K.
This can be done at the volume pot (from the input lug to ground) but that would make it apply to all pickups so it’s usually a better idea to take resistor from the each chosen pickup’s hot switch lug and connect the other end to ground. That means, you’d have two separate resistors, one for each pickup you’re affecting.
There isn’t an easily sourced 500K resistor so you’ll want to use two 470K resistors for the job.
I don’t know the Semi-Hollow circuit so I can’t tell you for sure where to go. If you trace the bridge and neck hot wires to the 5-way pickup selector switch, you can use these to connect one leg of each resistor. Connect the other to ground (insulate the legs if they are at risk of shorting).
For mix positions, you’ll have the middle pickup seeing the 250K volume pot but, when isolated, the middle pickup will still see the 500K pot. If you want this to be different, you’ll need to look at SuperSwitches and things get a little more complicated.
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Ah. Sorry. When you said master volume I assumed you wanted it to control everything.
Yep: if you send the output from the middle pickup volume directly to the Jack, it will bypass the other volume and tone controls. 👍
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Hey Gabby
Scribbled out what I think this should be. Hopefully you can make sense of my scrawling.
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Hey David
Usually, connecting piezo and magnetic pickups gives a pretty poor result. Piezo pickups are usually ultra-high impedance while the magnetic pickups are lower and the two tend not to mix well.
Usually it’s recommended to use something like the Fishman PowerChip (https://www.fishman.com/portfolio/powerchip/) to bring the piezo impedance and output to levels that match the magnetic pickup and then blend the two signals. It MIGHT be possible to use the Fishman endpin preamp to do that (I’ve never seen it done like that) but I don’t think the way you have it drawn is a runner for a couple of reasons (one being a mistake in the wiring — that ground wire from the piezo volume pot shouldn’t join the switch wire).
That wiring issue aside, what you’re attempting with your diagram is to mix the two mismatched signals and THEN send the combined signal through the preamp. That will probably just boost the mismatch. If things were to work with this particular hardware, you’d probably want to send the piezo through the preamp on its own first and then mix the preamp output with the magnetic signal. That’d mean this endpin preamp became an ‘internal’ component, used only for the wiring and you’d need a completely separate output jack to output the signal and act as a power switch (which would need to be integrated into the preamp/’internal’ jack). Not sure if this will work (it feels like it might) but, if it does it’s going to be very messy.
Have a look at the instructions for the PowerChip to get a feel for what’s involved in its installation. There are other options out there too (GraphTech Ghost is one). If the budget stretches, I recommend going with something like those.
fishman.com
Powerchip Piezo Volume Control Onboard Accessory | Fishman
With Fishman Powerchip Piezo Volume Control makes it possible to mis the signal from your Powerbridge with the magnetic pickups in your guitar.
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Uploading a revised diagram for this. The diagram above showed the standard Explorer wiring and I included some info on how to decouple the volume controls. I’ve made a new one that actually includes the decoupled wiring. So, you can go with this diagram if this thing is the sort of thing you want your thing to be. 😄
Two pickups, 3-way toggle, two volumes (decoupled) and master tone.
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Hi Jorge
I’m probably not the best person to answer this as I’m usually a ‘passive-only’ kind of guy. 😄
From what I know, though, this is a little unusual. Generally, the EQ pots on a preamp have more than one wire to connect them. It’s typical for each to have three wires (I think one is essentially a ‘control wire’ and the others are ground and a reference voltage that the control wipes between to boost or cut frequencies). The fact that you’ve only one wire for each control complicates the active scenario.
If you’re sure that these are definitely treble and bass, I can only see two possibities, neither of which I’m certain of.
One is that we wire in a passive treble and bass control. Because it’s passive, it would only cut frequencies and not boost them. Also, it’s not guranteed to work properly with an active preamp. It may do weird things. If you wanted to try, you could use the G&L passive treble and bass setup that’s shown at https://tonefiend.com/guitar/two-band-ptb-tone-control-useful-easy-cheap-awesome/ The treble-cut is just like a regular guitar or bass tone control. The bass cut needs a lower value capacitor (it’s on that page) and will need a connection back to the volume pot.
The second option is a really long-shot. It might be worth experimenting by wiring the treble/bass wires to the wiper (middle lug) of the pot and then wiring one of the outside lugs to ground. It’s possible that this will work but I have some doubts.
Neither of these really feels right but might be worth a go if you’re getting desparate. Sorry. Option two has the advantage of being easier and faster to try and rule out so I’d start there.
tonefiend.com
Two-Band "PTB" Tone Control: Useful, Easy, Cheap & AWESOME! - tonefiend.com
The PTB Circuit was one of many G&L innovations. After the frantic soldering fest that was The Pagey Project, I figured it might be time for a nice, simple DIY wiring project. At the suggestion of tonefiend reader JH, I … Continue reading
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So, the question of what you want the volume pots to do in the middle position is open but, in the meantime, I’ll pass on this in the hope that it covers something.
This sounds like it should be just like an explorer with single coils. I’ve attached a drawing.
Pickup hot wires to volume pots.
From volume pots to switch.
Output from switch to master tone pot and then to output jack.As shown, it will operate like a Gibson, in the middle position, turning EITHER volume down will cut out BOTH pickups. If you prefer the volume pots to be independent and just to cut volume for the pickup they control, reverse the input and outputs at the volume pots (so the pickup hot connects to the middle lug)
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Hey Tony
I don’t know this specific P-Bass jack configuration so can’t give you a definitive. It is possible (albeit with some hassle) to source open Switchcraft jacks with some additional switching contacts so it may be possible to replicate the additional switching of the original piece. It will probably depend on how much extra switching it’s doing — some of the plastic-housing jacks can have DPDT switches built in.
If you have a diagram, post it and we can take a look. If not, it may need you to spend some time with a continuity tester to figure out the way the current switching works. Depending on how much switching it’s doing, you may be stuck with the plastic-housing options.
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I’ve been given the results of this. I’ve also got hold of the tracks that were used in the listening poll. So, rather than just posting the results and correct answers, I added the info to a post at the link below. That way, folks can have a listen for themselves before seeing the answers/results. Link below.
https://dev.loothgroup.com/post-imgcap/covered-versus-uncovered-humbuckers
Just scroll to the bottom of the linked post to see the results.
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Hey Mike
Have never seen a TBX quite like this and I don’t remember seeing one of those ‘extra lug’ pots used in a guitar but this does make some sense.
The extra lug on a pot like this is generally a centre tap — a connection right into the middle of the resistive track. So, between the extra lug and lug 1 will read half the total resistance and between the extra lug and lug 3 will also read half the total.
The current TBX pots aren’t regular pots. Each of the stacked pots in the TBX is modified so that they only have half of their resistive track (one pot’s track covers 0-5 on the knob and the other pot covers between 5-10). My guess is that using the ‘tap’ lug on this pot allowed them to get a similar behaviour before they had tooled up for the current modified TBX.
Like I say, I don’t think I’ve seen these extra-lug, tapped, pots in a guitar before but, now I think of it because they’re sometimes used in L/R balance controls and similar, it’s quite possible they’ve been used in something like active preamps or maybe even for blend.
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Hi Elaine
It’s hard to say anything for sure from a photo as it’s hard to trace wires around under others. Things are too tight packed here to be sure but I think you’re correct in identifying the pots. One certainly looks like volume and the other certainly looks like tone. It’s safe to assume the one with the PCB attached is distortion or gain.
I think that orange wire goes from the volume to the common lug of the switch and then, from one of the corresponding switched lugs, there’s a white wire that seems to go to the tone pot. This does suggest that in one position the tone is bypassed but I can’t be 100% certain. Should be possible to check with some listening tests though.
As to the other toggle switch positions, your own testing is the best thing here. Once those wires get to the PCB, it’s a lot more difficult to trace out what they’re doing.
On the subject of listening tests, it might be worth doing the ‘clunk’ test and tapping a screwdriver against the pickup poles to verify the 4-way pickup switch positions. I have a suspicion that the position 1 (neck loud) you mention could be a series pickup connection. That’d bring in the neck and bridge pickups in series and would give a slightly beefier output. This sort of 4-way switching (neck+bridge series/neck/neck+bridge parallel/bridge) is sometimes seen on Teles.
If you tap the screwdriver off a pole on each pickup as you move switch positions you should be able to confirm which is active in each position.
Hope this helps a bit.
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Hey Ben
Shielding might help. I’ve seen it work wonders but I’ve also seen it make only minimal difference. The control cavity on a Tele isn’t too fiddly to shield so it might be worth a try. Is the bridge pickup doing the same? -
Hey Jason
There seems to be a lot going on all at once. I talked about first impressions on the council of elders discussion but David Collins had a great idea.
My first thought on the tone control acting like a volume was to consider the tone capacitor. When caps break down, sometimes they can start to pass all frequencies rather than just the higher ones. When it’s working, you can think of a tone control as a volume for highs and, if the capacitor breaks down like this, it can be a volume for a wider range of frequencies.
David was sharp enough to recognise that your weird single coil tones could be related to the coils degrading. The insulation on the coil wires can break down and do very weird things. These can often sound like low-output, out of phase tones. I’d originally disregarded this possibility because you mentioned that you’d been able to measure a DC resistance of 5.something on the singles and that wouldn’t normally jibe with this problem. But, if you’d measured the pickups without disconnecting them from the rest of the circuit, you could have gotten erroneous readings. So, it’s worth un-soldering all the pickups and checking their resistance again.
This is definitely a good track to pursue since you mentioned some worn tape and exposed coils. Also check for any corrosion around the coils or poles. That can be an indicator too.
Since we’re on the subject of unsoldering, I don’t think you’re getting out of this job with original solder joints intact. 😄 Start by taking the pickups out of circuit and re-test them. If you had a couple of spare singles around, it’d the a great idea to try them in circuit to see if they work. The more I think about this, the more I think David was on the right track and you’ve got some failing singles.
Of course, troubleshooting wiring remotely isn’t straightforward so update here when you know more and we’ll keep working if needed.
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Hey Joe. Thanks for that. 👍
Yeah. The boxed numbers are the switch terminals. Check out this diagram from their site. If you just want one master tone, ignore those cyan blue wires from the switch and just feed your tone control from the volume pot (the lug marked R in the drawing)
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The Schaller switches don’t have a straightforward correlation to other switches. They have some internal connections that are different depending on the switch model. That means you usually need to get the right switch that will achieve your desired outcome.
I haven’t used their rotary switches but from what I can tell on their site, the hook-up configuration matches the blade models. I think that means you’ll want their ‘S’ type switch with 5 positions. See their options at https://schaller.info/en/megaswitch-rotary/15330003?s=1.
For planning these things, you need to scroll right down the bottom of this page: https://schaller.info/en/guides/megaswitches#pickup and check the configurations and circuits links.
For soldering, you’re right. Tin the pads and you can solder wires as needed.
Personally, I find MegaSwitches a little limiting. I prefer a regular rotary or super switch but that might be just me. 😄
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The previous responses are great. I might thrown in an idea from left field. I sort of ‘defaulted’ into repair work after building instruments for a while. That give you a heap of hands-on experience with a lot of stuff. Yes, it’s a sort of ‘green-field’ experience that won’t prepare you for everything you’ll encounter in a repair situation but it’s a fantastic way to build basic skills that’ll stand you really well. Plus, you get to learn on something that won’t break a customer’s heart if you make a mistake. 😄
You don’t have to spend heaps of cash to do this. Start with the cheapest kit guitar you can find. Trying to make a cheap kit sound and play well is a good project and you end up with a handy test-bed instrument to refret, replace a nut, mod the wiring, replace a bridge, or whatever.
If your budget and time will stretch to it, get a body and neck blank and try a build from scratch. It’s a fun way to work on woodworking skills, again without so much pressure.
I think you’ve got the right approach here. You know it’ll take time and you’re willing to work on your skills. Like James said, that’s really important.
And I understand the anxiety. What I’ll say is that the folks on here are not like many of the folks I’ve encountered on the internet. Looth Groupers genuinely seem happy to help without being judgemental or snobby. When you’ve got some people who have your back, asking questions can cause less anxiety than trying to figure stuff out on your own.
Keep asking. We’re a friendly bunch around here. 👍
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No. It needs to be around 500K to do the job (it’s a resistors in parallel thing). There’s no easily available 500K resistor so use a 470K instead. That will get you where you want to be well within regular pot tolerances.
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Hey David
Thanks for that. If I’m understanding everything, using your push-pull you have a way to isolate just the middle pickup alone.
That gives us an option… We can add a resistor between the switch hot output (the yellow circle at the switch in your drawing) and a ground point. That will make all pickup selections on the 5-way switch see a 250K(ish) pot.
When you pull your push-pull, that will take the 5-way switch out of the circuit and send only the middle pickup to the volume pot. That also takes the resistor out of circuit and the solo-ed middle pickup will see the full 500K.
I think this should work. Does it sound ok for your purposes?
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Ok. Wire as shown but connect the pickup hot wires to the middle lug of each volume pot. The wires going to the switch will then come from the other volume pot lug. That make sense?
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Hey Mitch
I’m not following this exactly. In the middle position, can you expand on what you want each volume pot to do?
Thanks
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Yeah. Will post the results after the submissions are closed. It’s an interesting exercise, isn’t it?
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Ha. Great catch, Jonathan. Piezo elements hiding in plain sight. D’oh! 😄
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Ah. Sorry for making an assumption. When you originally mentioned distortion, I just jumped on that bandwagon. If that’s not definitely what it is, apologies. One possibility (relatively likely if we don’t assume distortion) is a boost of some kind. It’s probably one of the more common on-board effects. It could be an across-the-board boost with the knob as an overall gain or maybe a mid-boost with the knob controlling the boosted gain or frequency.
Of course, it could be a reverb. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered an on-board reverb but I never underestimate the ingenuity/insanity of guitarists. 😄
I realise this probably just muddies the waters again. Sorry.
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Hmm. Hard to say with any certainty but maybe the environment is a little noisy there. If you’re up for experimentation, you could try turning off electrical things and see if any makes a difference. Other than that, the shielding and replacing wiring with shielded cables certainly won’t hurt and is worth a try if you’re happy to put the time in.
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Ok. Thinline makes things a bit less straightforward. I don’t know how much time you’re happy to put into this guitar but, if you wanted to try, you could consider replacing the pickup hook-ups and all the internal wires with shielded cables. It’s a bit of a pain in the ass. Depending on your willingness to continue, you can shield whatever cavities you can too.
Based on the video, your string ground is certainly working ok. Feel free to use a continuity tester to check between the output jack sleeve and all of the component casings to make sure but I suspect they’ll all be fine.
Some pickups are more susceptible to interference, especially at the budget end of the market (not sure what these are, though). If you confirm the soundness of the wiring/ground and you replace the internals with shielded cable, that’s all you’ll be left with besides environment. On this last one, some locations are more interference-noisy than others. I’m guessing that you have other guitars that are not so noisy in this same location and with this same amp setup, though, so this may not be the answer.
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I don’t think the StewMac gold wire is EVO stuff. They’re a little vague about the alloy but it seems different. I was talking with someone about it recently and looked into it a little.
EVO is an alloy containing copper, tin, iron, and titanium. Stew Mac’s page mentions that their gold wire is primarily a C425 copper alloy which is copper, zinc, and tin. Based on composition, that probably means EVO is likely to be a little harder. However, without knowing some more factors, this doesn’t mean much. First off is that ‘primarily’ qualifier on Stew Mac’s info. That seems to indicate that there’s more ingredients added to the mix than stated. And, even knowing the exact composition of both wires, it’s probably much will depend on how they’re worked and annealed in manufacture.
I haven’t used the Stew Mac stuff yet but, bottom line is that they are claiming its similar in hardness to EVO and that it’s harder than regular nickel silver. The first claim is hard to judge at the moment but the second seems to be a given.
I’ve a small stash of EVO left but I’m not too worried about substituting in the Stew Mac gold when it runs out.
